this “gender identity” business
So “gender identity” is an important concept in the trans world. It might be the important concept, because without “gender identity” the whole trans house of cards falls into a heap and we can all pack up and go home.
Given that, I guess it’s about time I ripped into it. Not an easy task considering that gender identity is one of those nebulous concepts that means different things to different people. But I looked up a bunch of different definitions and explanations and whittled it down to this:
Gender identity: an internal and deep sense of whether one is a man or a woman (or boy or girl).
I’ll start by saying that I don’t have one of those – a deep internal sense of being a woman. I dont have a sense of being a man either. I have a deep internal sense of being a human being. And that’s it.
Now, there are times when I do have a sense of being a woman. And that is when I am made to feel like a woman.
I have a sense of being a woman when a man makes a big show about opening a door for me – “Ladies first!” I also have a sense of being a woman when a client speaks to me in that condescending way men of a certain age reserve for Young Ladies. I have a sense of being a woman if I am cat-called by construction workers.
These are obvious examples.
But there many more subtle examples. For instance, if I’m sitting on the train and I catch a glimpse of a billboard displaying a scantily clad barbie type woman, that too suddenly gives me the sense of being a woman (in this case, I am acutely aware of my womanliness re how well it compares to the feminine ideal as encapsulated by the billboard woman).
Or, if I’m watching a news segment about a rapist who is on the loose, and a police officer comes on to advise women on how to keep safe (you know, by not going out in public after dark etc). That too gives me the sense of being a woman (in this case a sense of my womanliness as it pertains to my vulnerability to rape, and my apparent responsibility for preventing it. Fuckers.)
It’s these subtle examples, not the obvious examples which make up the bulk of this externally imposed sense of gender. Take any average day and one probably packs in thousands of these moments, and it’s really no wonder that one may believe the sense of gender they feel comes from within and not from the outside.
But ultimately when I am home alone, eating toast, or playing tetris, or patting the cat that hangs around my block or doing a million other things that dont involve much patriarchy, I don’t feel any sense of gender or womanliness or femininity.
This holds true even for things that are considered quintessentially womanly. For instance when dealing with my period I don’t have a particular sense of being feminine or even female. I experience it as just another human bodily function, like sleeping or eating.
Menstruation only stops feeling like it’s just another human bodily function if, for example, a dude tells me that “it’s freaky that you chicks can bleed for a week without dying!” And suddenly I have a sense of being a freaky chick and not a neutral human being (and I also have an acute sense of being othered, which is what a great deal of feminine gendering does).
So there you go.
I experience gender solely as something imposed on me externally (albeit in such a pervasive and insidious way that it could easily be mistaken as being an internal state). I suspect this is how most people experience gender too.
Based on this and like, four decades worth of feminist theory, I completely reject the validity of “gender identity”.
And uh oh. Someone better call the whaaaaaambulance.
Because HALP. If you deny the validity of gender identities you are DENYING the EXISTENCE and HUMANITY of TRANZZZZZZ
Supposedly. But I prefer facts to suppositions.
And the fact is that someone not validating the identities of others does not deny their existence or their humanity. Everyone does it all the time.
Some people have a deep, internal sense that they have a soul. Some indigenous peoples and new-age wannabes have a deep internal sense that they have a spirit animal. Some people have a deep internal sense that they have a star sign that is meaningful and consequential.
Being a godless skeptic, I dont believe in or have a sense of any of these things. But that does not stop anyone else from believing in them. It does not stop those who do believe in these things from expressing these parts of themselves, or from acting in accordance with them, within reason. As long as they don’t step on anyone’s toes they are free to do whatever they want.
And lets talk about that for a moment – the stepping on toes. How far is the rest of the world supposed to go in order to validate these things that people consider to be an intrinsic part of themselves and their identities?
If I had a catholic nigel, would I be required to marry him solely because from his perspective it would mean his soul, which I don’t believe exists, would no longer be damned from living in sin with me?
If I had a hippy employee, would I be required to let them stay home for the entire winter because their spirit animal compels them to hibernate for a few months?
If I was running a convention for twins, would I be required to let in a gemini, who despite being an only child has a deep internal sense of twin-ness, because of their “astrological identity”?
No, no and no.
Anyone is free to consider souls, spirit animals, star signs and gender identities as being an intrinsic part of themselves. But no-one can expect the world to bend around these perceptions of self, validate them or pander to them.
In fact, if one’s identity is so fragile as to be contingent on other people validating it, then there is obviously something problematic about the identity.
Those of you who are gender-identified might want to work on that.
Like this:
Filed under: analogies, lived experience, trans-activism and feminism, what makes a woman? | 80 Comments
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COMMENTS
“In fact, if one’s identity is so fragile as to be contingent on other people validating it, then there is obviously something problematic about the identity”
Beautiful! And spot on! The trans identity IS fragile, because it is a faux identity, an identity all hopes and dreams of everlasting happiness are pinned upon. Hopes and dreams the true self bet all its chips on in a disordered gamble. The trans identity would literally kill or try to kill/harm/slander any and all whom it feels could potentially rouse the trans dreamer from the trans dream turning their gamble to dust.
I’m reminded of one of Sylvia Plath’s last poems Balloons:
“Your Brother is making
His balloon squeak like a cat.
Seeming to see
A funny pink world he might eat on the other side of it,
He bites,
Then sits
Back, fat jug
Contemplating a world clear as water.
A red
Shred in his little fist.”
The trans identity is as real and solid as that “funny pink world” one perceives while looking through a red balloon.
dirt
Trans identities and the entire trans framework is based on how transpersons feel AND what they imagine other people feel too. As you said. For example, transwomen say “my feelings don’t match my genitals, AND YOURS DO, therefore there is something wrong with me.” I don’t see any religious identities that state as their very premise that there’s something wrong with themselves. And I don’t see any religious people who believe that everyone has a religious identity, or deny that there are atheists. This trans business is really unique, as far as these things go. Obviously they are demanding that we accept their delusions, but this is really new and different than anything we have seen before.
Sorry if I just restated the meat of your post. Haha. It’s all very interesting, and bizarre when you think about it isn’t it?
Gender identity, as far as I can see, is that latest fad in academentia. It’s all the rage in “queer” (I mean erase biowomen) studies.
No I don’t pay attention to “being a woman” when I’m by myself or not subjected to idiot condescending men. Working quietly, playing music or going to the dog park just isn’t a gender identity. I guess all this obsession comes from patriarchally controlled ideas of gender enforced on male and female alike, with transwomen imitating women in patriarchy.
It’s why transwomen always seem so, well completely unlike women I know. They give themselves away because they are imitating not being.
But leave it to academics these days to teach this junk, meanwhile the poor kids are wasting valuable college time that they could be using to get a real education… in the middle of a terrible recession.
I agree completely! Still, to play devil’s advocate for a moment, I agree with your idea that gender identity is heavily externally imposed. And it occurs to me that I’ve never felt very motivated to resist the gender identity that’s imposed on me. Maybe the deep inner sense that one has a gender that doesn’t line up with one’s physical sex is developed as a result of having the motivation to resist that imposition of gender identity and actively trying to resist that. There are some complications facing that hypothesis, but if it’s right, it would mean that having a deep inner sense of your gender means you aren’t like the vast majority of either men or women, since they don’t aggressively resist their gender identity and so never develop these deep inner senses. Which would make it misleading for transwomen to say they’re “really” women, since their basis is something they don’t share with the vast majority of women, and similarly for transmen.
One of the complications of course is that feminists do considerable resisting of some of the aspects of gender identity, so to account for that on my hypothesis I’d have to make some distinction between resisting being thought of as a certain gender and resisting some of the things others try to make part of the concept of the gender, and say that feminists resist the latter and transgendered people the former. Or something of the sort. Or perhaps my hypothesis is complete nonsense. Hopefully if it’s complete nonsense some helpful person will rip it apart for me.
Gender identity is subconscious. Like everything subcionscious, it’s only obvious when there’s something wrong, like having a body that doesn’t match your identity.
As for the facts you crave, they’re not out there. The research is bloody thin, so you’re talking out of your ass as much as the next gal.
Sorry Dessa, but vague pop-psychology explanations aren’t good enough. And sorry, but there is 40 years worth of feminist research and theorisation on gender. Oh, but I guess the research doesnt count unless it’s done by (and serves) teh menz.
@ Dirt
Love the poem! Very apt. And it’s so true that it’s a faux identity. Polly wrote about this too in a comment she left at mAndrea’s:
http://feminazi.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/transgender-non-logic-4739/#comment-5677
The reason why trans people are so gung-ho about getting everyone on board with their delusion is because it is a delusion. If it wasn’t they wouldn’t need the external validation.
@ FCM
Yeah, it’s really quite difficult to come up with suitable analogies because this trans business isn’t really like anything else. That’s one of the things that makes it so threatening for women because there is no historical reference point and we have no idea just how it all might pan out. We’re facing uncharted waters here. And you’re right, it is bizarre. Also, why is it happening now?
@ Sheila
Academentia! LOL. Love it. I would have liked to major in women’s studies actually, but that doesnt exist anymore. There was no way I wanted to subject myself to the queer-ified pomo replacement, nor get into debt for the privilege of studying it!
@ Aaron
Yes, it is true that most people don’t resist their imposed gender in any significant way. Which begs the question as to why they don’t, when imposed gender is very often detrimental to women, and very occasionally detrimental to men. The obvious answer is that people dont resist because there are significant punishments meted out to those who do. And that begs the question as to why all this effort is spent on having a complicated system of punishments/rewards for gender conformity. And the obvious answer is because that system is needed in order to sustain an unfair social arrangement which privileges some people over others.
It was obvious to feminists back in the 70s, and it’s only with the advent of queer theory that this social construction of gender was no longer taken for granted.
And it is also true that trans people are not the only ones to resist imposed gender. Radfems do it. Many gay/lesbian people do it to some extent as well. In fact nearly everyone alive probably resists imposed gender some of the time in small ways. Women are forced into resisting at least some of the time, because the gender standard imposed on us is impossible to live up to.
Which is why I don’t agree that resistance of imposed gender develops a sense of internal gender in people, because for thousands of years women have felt a dissonance between our internal selves and the gender imposed on us. So of all people who could have first described the concept of “gender identity”, you would expect it to have been us (we have the monopoly on gender dysphoria). But the concepts of “gender identity” and transgenderism are entirely rooted in male-identified medicine and academic theory.
Re your hypothesis, do you mean that only trans people have a gender identity, or that we all have a gender identity but it is only activated through the resistance of imposed gender?
i didnt mean to criticise miska, just to expound. LOL my comment was kind of wack, sorry. because its clearly the case, as you say, that we are expected to accept and pander to transpersons delusions/identities/desires. and that we are not expected to do this in other areas, even in areas of religious delusion, if the delusion isnt mainstream, or if its extremely disruptive to business as usual (for example, saturdays off for jews is OK, but 3 months for the hippie, not OK).
i will think more about the parallels that can be drawn…or whether there even are any that capture the frankly bizarre connotations of the trans-delusion specifically. as you say, its difficult to imagine one, and it might be impossible. but i just wanted to pop back in and say that i got what you were saying, and its true, that the trans-identified rely heavily (as in 100%) on the belief that EVERYONE ELSE EXPERIENCES GENDER, too. and they cant prove it, and in fact there are thousands of women and feminists over decades who specifically say NO, WE DONT.
ffs. ALL BORN-MEN DO is express their “gender”, whether they feel like women or like men. they are fucking obsessed with it. and the rest of us (the wimmins) are just trying to get through the day without getting raped, harassed, or impregnated.
In answer to your question, Miska, I meant the former. I don’t see any reason to postulate some kind of unconscious latent gender identity which is only activated under certain circumstances; one which doesn’t exist until circumstances lead to its construction seems much more plausible to me.
also, HOW REFRESHING to have someone playing devils advocate with the feminists. seriously, that NEVER happens.
I’d say the entire feminist movement was resisting what used to be immutable concepts: women stay at home, men work, it’s not women’s work_______to
Men are supposed to act like men.
Women are not allowed to speak in churches. Why? Because they are women, not because they have no vocal chords.
Resisting gender restrictions is right up there with resisting colonial powers. The Afghan people are resisting American colonizers. Women are resisting male colonizers.
Some women resist more aggressively than others depending on the stakes. Straight women conform to “catch” men. Lesbian feminists could care less about men, so it is far easier for us to resist a lot of the gender conformity straight women seem mired in.
Some people like acting like slaves. Even Step-in-Fetch-It got roles in movies. The ruling class throws out bones to keep the rest of the peasants (I mean women) in line.
But the weird thing is, MTF don’t resist gender, they embrace gender sterotypes, particularly patriarchal definitions of how women should dress and act. It’s peculiar, because their brains still function in very male ways, and they say things women never say.
Their aggressive undertone usually gives the game away, that they are meerly men who want to immitate how women “look” in patriarchy. And why is it that MTFs seem to be 10 times the number of FTMs. Again, men want to invade all women’s spaces. It’s a new male colonizing step.
Glad you liked “academentia” Miska— Mary Daly coined it
Not even ten comments in, and we have a fine example of transnonsense.
The discussion is about gender identity..and Dessa brings up bodies somehow not “matching.” I’m still waiting to find out how these two totally unrelated things can be mismatched.
Lets not forget that the man who theorized “gender identity” and gender identity disorder” also theorized/advocated “consensual pedophilia”.
dirt
Are you referring to that Money fellow? Everything I have read about him suggests he was nothing but a creep. “Consensual pedophilia”? Yeah, right. “Consensual” for who? The adult. That’s who.
@ H
Good point, that. It’s just another example of how it is impossible to discuss anything properly with trans activists because they cannot keep the fundamental concepts straight. It reminds me of the way they continually conflate sex and gender. Honestly, having a discussion with them is like having a discussion with a character out of alice in wonderland.
In answer to your question, Miska, I meant the former. I don’t see any reason to postulate some kind of unconscious latent gender identity which is only activated under certain circumstances; one which doesn’t exist until circumstances lead to its construction seems much more plausible to me.
It’s more plausible than the latter but I still dont buy it because people (women in particular) have resisted imposed gender for centuries in all sorts of ways, yet the concept of gender identity is entirely new.
Also assuming that an internal sense of gender is developed through resisting imposed gender, then it begs the question – which comes first?
According to your hypothesis, trans people only develop a sense of internal gender through resisting imposed gender. But presumably they resist imposed gender because of their sense of internal gender.
Chicken and egg.
Well, I said it was pretty tentative, and clearly there are complications which would need to be addressed for it to have a chance of being tenable. I guess I’m speculating that what makes someone feel they have an identity, rather than just that they happen to have some assorted desires and attitudes, has something to do with the resistance that they encounter to the expression of those desires and attitudes. Apologies for the vagueness of this half-formed (perhaps half-baked) speculation!
@ FCM
the trans-identified rely heavily (as in 100%) on the belief that EVERYONE ELSE EXPERIENCES GENDER, too. and they cant prove it, and in fact there are thousands of women and feminists over decades who specifically say NO, WE DONT.
This is one of the main problems I see with the concept of gender identity. I dont actually care if trans people believe they have a gender identity. It’s in the same league as “otherkin” saying that they are vampires or elves.
I have a problem with trans people insisting that everyone else has a gender identity. Because ffs, how do they even know? They don’t, but they’ve made the assumption anyway, and it has simply been absorbed by funfems with zero analysis or critical thought.
Gender identity as a concept basically undoes about 30 years worth of feminist theory in one swoop. Suddenly gender is no longer a social construct, it’s now innate and inside of everyone! And it’s being written into laws. That’s a real threat to women and feminism.
Also, I didnt take your first comment as a criticism at all!
also, HOW REFRESHING to have someone playing devils advocate with the feminists. seriously, that NEVER happens.
I know, right? I saw that and rolled my eyes.
Their aggressive undertone usually gives the game away, that they are meerly men who want to immitate how women “look” in patriarchy. And why is it that MTFs seem to be 10 times the number of FTMs. Again, men want to invade all women’s spaces. It’s a new male colonizing step.
I agree, sheila. There is a very aggressive undertone to way transwomen demand access to our spaces and demand our validation. It feels like bullying. And one cannot ignore the symbolism – it is a colonization.
Also, the fact that there are miles more MTFs than FTMs is telling. Women have a million valid reasons to want to escape the confines of our imposed gender role, yet transition started with the MTFs, and they still vastly outnumber FTMs.
This is because males are used to looking at women and what we have and saying “I can have that”, including womanhood itself (or at least, what they believe to be womanhood). They see it as theirs for the taking.
Females don’t feel such entitlement to what males have. Even though we ARE entitled to what males have (human fucking rights).
So the reason for the huge disparity between the actual number of MTFs and FTMs is about the male sense of entitlement to everything in the world, including how they perceive female bodies to be. It is the aggression in female spaces that is always so jarring when you encounter it. Just think of Camp Trans outside Michigan Womyn’s Music festival, for example. Or think of a transwoman ostentatiously putting on make-up at a check-in table for a lesbian health event. Imagine if you will lesbians having to run yet another gauntlet through “male arrogance” just to check in at a conference.
Imagine going into the women’s room and having to listen to a transwoman SING in the stall.
Just the creepiness of having to deal with transwomen prostitutes in women’s rooms without any thought toward the care and safety of bio women.
It’s the arrogance, the colonizing, the crude aggression, the unbelievable inappropriate statements in conversations. I’ve seen and heard it all. It got so sickening, that I won’t go to gay and lesbian center events anymore, because I want a real women’s community. And actually, I feel far safer in all women’s groups– straight and lesbian than in the mess that is LGBT weirdness now.
Since men obviously have no idea that they sound like entitled idiots, how would they know NOT to do this just because they got a surgical operation? They wouldn’t would they, because they are still men. Only they refuse to accept this and IMPOSE THEIR idea of what they THINK women are on women. It’s like white people imposing their idea of what they THINK black people are just because they got a PHD in African-American studies.
They never seem to get this, and the aggression never ends. They never ask permission or shut up, and they think they can bully lesbians, and I can tell you, there are many lesbians out there who won’t let these creeps and cretans into lesbian space. Straight women keep wanting to subject us all to this!
Ran across this nonsense and thought I’d pass it on as it pertains to this blog.
From some tranny whom calls themselves “christen”
“i went on that “fab” blog to talk shit, colbert style, lol teehee
they really are nuts tho, theyre just like… really dumn white supremicists with their bizzarro world arguments:
“transwomen are men, who are women hating oppressors, therefor all women are oppressed by transwomen hating men, we need our space bs bs blah blah blah”.
i really think the one who wrote to vexing has a couple screws loose in her head. shes definitely not all there”.
This is from some thread about “transphobic blogs”.
dirt
“Also, the fact that there are miles more MTFs than FTMs is telling. Women have a million valid reasons to want to escape the confines of our imposed gender role, yet transition started with the MTFs, and they still vastly outnumber FTMs.”
Ah exactly, and they still don’t seem to get that being a womon =\= lack of a penis
I just wish they’d be more specific when talking about their gender identity. Saying you’re really a “woman” doesn’t really tell me much. I mean…come on, there have been, like, TONS of women.
Personally, my gender identity is that of a female from the Niigata area of Japan circa 1860. I just always felt like I was one, inside, and I’ve always been incredibly fascinated by female undergarments of that region and time period (I even bought some replicas from a historical reenactment group and wear them secretly!). I’ve been very disappointed so far, though, in not being accepted by the Japanese immigrant community in my area (I think they’re transphobic). And so far I haven’t gotten my insurance to pay for the reconstructive surgery necessary to make me look the way I think I do, but inside. Not literally my insides but, you know, if you could project my brain into a visual appearance, it would be, like, a Japanese woman’s brain. So I need to look like that.
Other people try to tell me I’m not really Japanese, but HELLO! If national and ethnic identity is just a social construct, and so are time periods, and so is gender, why CAN’T I be a Japanese women from 1860? It’s all fluid, right? I’m really sick of all this persecution.
Oh, well. Maybe next year.
“It’s in the same league as “otherkin” saying that they are vampires or elves.”
How dare you “other” “otherkin”, Miska!? I mean, the persecution that they face is so OBVIOUSLY a feminist issue.
(The facetiousness in this post has been brought to you by…Caffeine! The drug of choice for the USA since 1789.)
I’m sure you have 17 million comments in queue right now, but I just want to shout a lil’ HALLELUJAH to this:
BORN WOMEN HAVE THE MONOPOLY ON GENDER DYSPHORIA. Jesus H. Christ, AMEN! (Queer theory is legitimized by patriarchal concepts of “intellectual authority,” no doubt.) When born women hate their female bodies, we have eating disorders and body dysphoria. For which many of us have DIED. But breast enlargements and liposuction ARE NOT THE ANSWER. No, confronting oppressive social expectations of femininity is the only strategy that gets at the ROOT of the problem. Mutilation of bodies is not the answer. Never has been, never will be. Not for us, and not for trans people.
By the way, in an effort to bring more clarity to the confusion caused by trans activist re-purposing the of the feminist theory of socially constructed gender, I am now referring to essentialist fweelings of gender I-dentity as JENDER. You know, cause I can.
I still have a lot more reading to do and concepts that aren’t fully formed yet, but I can’t tell you how amazing it is to find feminists discussing these things.
I never fully bought into the transsexual “we feel like women on the inside and will transform our outsides to match that” explanation, but felt that there were things about it that I didn’t understand, perhaps couldn’t understand.
It wasn’t until the first time I came across the idea of “cis privilege” (a term that still makes me shake my head in disgust) that I really began delving into what transpeople are actually saying about women and what it means to the basic ideas of feminism.
Thanks for providing a place where I can say these things without being called a bigot, troll, man, or right wing Christian.
I see a lot of insistence on the comments that trans gender identity is only valid by external factors (ie- people validate it by accepting and when they don’t trans people are invalid). The thing is, I am quite confident in my identity. Even tho you will devalue my identity in your replies, it doesn’t change how I feel about myself or how the world I interact with views me. Frankly, people have a natural right to self identity and not having labels applied onto them.
“And it’s being written into laws. That’s a real threat to women and feminism.”
: I question what is lost in society protecting gender diversity, gender identity, gender expression. The lawful protections that trans people seek are not trans specific but protect the right of all people to be outside the norms of gender expression from wrongful treatments for going against the social grain. Regardless how you view trans people / if you believe in our identities or not, people should not be discriminated against for their gender expression from services like housing, or from employment and the ability to sustain one self.
You write on this as an invasion into woman’s spaces whereas trans people are seeking basic access to essential human needs free of discrimination. *shrugs* The answer is to not say we should not have transitioned, since trans people exist and are throughout society regardless in your beliefs. These laws will protect men and woman regardless how you consider our identities.
@ Kyals
The thing is, I am quite confident in my identity. Even tho you will devalue my identity in your replies, it doesn’t change how I feel about myself or how the world I interact with views me.
Well, good for you then.
If you think you are a woman I really dont care. You cant force everyone else to accept that you are a woman and that is what it comes down to.
And sorry, but we ARE talking about an invasion of women’s spaces. They’re OUR spaces, and we get to decide if they’re being invaded, not you. If transwomen need to access essential services, they should fucking create these essential services for themselves. You know, just how women got together and volunteered and started rape crisis centers and stuff.
It’s not hard, but I know transwomen being male simply expect women to take care of them and address their needs and open up our spaces with our generous motherly hearts. But you can fuck right off with that bullshit.
@ Dirt
Is that from the “trueselves” forum? I’ve been getting a lot of traffic from there over the past week and I was wondering when the trolling would begin.
And yep, completely agree that Christen has a few screws loose. Satire is like, supposed to be witty.
@ UP
Jender – I love it! We should re-appropriate “gender” as referring to the socially constructed roles imposed on people, and “jender” can refer to this nampy-pamby My-Twu-Identity business!
@ Ayla
Welcome
If you check out the trans page at the top I have a collection of links to other feminist writing on transgenderism too.
Personally, my gender identity is that of a female from the Niigata area of Japan circa 1860. I just always felt like I was one, inside, and I’ve always been incredibly fascinated by female undergarments of that region and time period (I even bought some replicas from a historical reenactment group and wear them secretly!). I’ve been very disappointed so far, though, in not being accepted by the Japanese immigrant community in my area (I think they’re transphobic). And so far I haven’t gotten my insurance to pay for the reconstructive surgery necessary to make me look the way I think I do, but inside. Not literally my insides but, you know, if you could project my brain into a visual appearance, it would be, like, a Japanese woman’s brain. So I need to look like that.
LOL for real, Eve’s Daughter. I love the bit about the undergarments. It’s funny cause it’s true
See, Christen – this is how satire is done. You should be taking notes.
Lots of great stuff in this thread! I’d be down with “jender” for these feelings if “Jender” weren’t the pen name of one of the feminist philosophers. It’d be nice to have some term for it; I find that my discussions have gotten awkward because of the lack of it.
I find that the connection between male entitlement and transwomen is plausible; it would certainly explain the otherwise puzzling fact that transwomen are much more common, rather than much rarer, than transmen. But I would be inclined to say that some distinction should be made between things to which the privileged feel entitled. The privileged feel entitled to some things that nobody should feel entitled to, but they also feel entitled to some things that everybody should be entitled to.* It seems to me offhand that the entitlement of transwomen is partly, perhaps mostly, on the worse (former) side of that line, because of the connections between what the transwomen want and attitudes harmful to born women, as discussed extensively in this thread, but I am as usual interested in whether people see this as a useful distinction, and if so whether it helps clarify the present topic any.
* Not that this latter category isn’t also seriously problematic in various ways. For example, I feel entitled to be heard on topics where I have some degree of expertise, which I think is a perfectly reasonable thing, and I generally get it. But the machinations of privilege make this problematic because others like me seem to feel entitled to be heard on topics where they know nothing, and exercising my privilege successfully reinforces the privilege of those like me. Further, many who aren’t like me have trouble being heard even when they do have relevant expertise, and their long experience with being crowded out of discussions no doubt makes them feel discouraged when people like me show up, since there’s a history of people like me dominating discussions and excluding them. So given the state of the real world, I should probably just shut up more often than I do, even though in an ideal world it might be perfectly justifiable for me to expect to be heard on the topic in question.
Just like the Intersex community, where you have trans people bullying their way in and demanding intersex people accept their warped logical view of what intersex is in the eyes of trans people. I have even seen them use the Intersex name as an excuse for who they are and even use the intersex name to explain why they are trans. I know intersex people want their own space and a space of their own to recover from the surgical and medical abuse. The problem their is that trans people keep invading the intersex community and keep making life very hard for the intersex people with their co-opting intersex community. Stealing an intersex person’s life experience and making it look like it’s one of their own. I even know some trans people who keep claiming to be intersex and keep using the intersex claim and they are Zoe Brain and Gina Wilson.
I wasn’t going to post again since this is your blog and I don’t intend to argue on all your points, but I need to comment on this 1 piece..
“If transwomen need to access essential services, they should fucking create these essential services for themselves. You know, just how women got together and volunteered and started rape crisis centers and stuff.”
@Miska .. Ok look, how many housing complex have you created? How many jobs for employing people have you created personally? How many rape centers have you personally made? You benefit from the work of others. Saying trans woman must personally create *all* the services they need access to is very absurd.. as is trans people tend to be economically on the lower lower end of the scale with high unemployment rates
Jender rules!
i went on that “fab” blog to talk shit, colbert style, lol teehee
they really are nuts tho, theyre just like… really dumn white supremicists with their bizzarro world arguments:
“transwomen are men, who are women hating oppressors, therefor all women are oppressed by transwomen hating men, we need our space bs bs blah blah blah”.
i really think the one who wrote to vexing has a couple screws loose in her head. shes definitely not all there”.
This is from some thread about “transphobic blogs”.
ROFLMAO. Usual high calibre arguments then!
Come on dudes, if ‘gender’ exists, prove it!
You might as well theorize that because I don’t want a breast enhancement I have a ‘breast identity’. Yanno my true self is a 38b. Otherwise, I’d be making with the silicon!
Dudes, I am quite happy to accept you want surgery. Your choice. It’s not proof of anything though, other than -you want surgery.
You want everyone to perceive you as female. I’m very happy for you. But it doesn’t make you female. Any more than if someone perceives ME as male (which happens from time to time) it makes me male.
The lawful protections that trans people seek are not trans specific but protect the right of all people to be outside the norms of gender expression from wrongful treatments for going against the social grain.
Utter fricking bollocks. Here is a prime example of TRANS EXCEPTIONALISM from the UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/jun/28/transsexual-woman-pension-ruling
Yes a man who became a woman legally wants to get her pension at the age of 60 instead of 65. But she’s married to a woman. And women can’t be married to women in the UK. So the courts agreed that -BECAUSE SHE IS TRANS – unlike any other woman in the UK she CAN be married to a woman!
Un-bloody-believable. But true.
@Eve’s Daughter – I think I love you. But now I’ve got coffee up my nose.
@SheilaG – You write “It’s like white people imposing their idea of what they THINK black people are just because they got a PHD in African-American studies.” That actually comes close to something I always end up thinking about when certain of these topics come up, and that is – trangressing boundaries to try to belong to a “lesser” (on the externally imposed social scale) group. For someone in the privileged group (on whatever scale) who is used to the idea of being able to travel among groups wherever and have access to everything, the idea of a group that actively resists their joining is probably both strange and also “forbidden fruit” in a sense. You can say you’re a member as long as you like, but if the existing members don’t accept you as one of them, if you constantly need to hide your origins lest they find out and reject you, then you know, somewhere deep in, that you still don’t belong, and so no, it’s NOT good enough, as long as someone out there still insists you’re playacting. And the fact is, membership in some groups is gained by the shared experience of GROWING UP considered as a member, it’s not something you can voluntarily (voluntarily!) choose later in life, even if those choices mean that you will in fact share some experiences with members of that group later.
Or to put it in terms of men/women, you become a full woman by growing up as a girl. The experience of growing up as a girl, with all the baggage that entails, is a big part of it.
If you grow up as a boy[1] and transition later, to the point where anyone looking on the street will not realize your origin and will subject you to the usual harrassment and catcalls and whatever else, do you have standing to speak out about those issues? Sure. That’s your actual experience now. But in certain other spaces, you’re still different, there are still places you can’t really belong, because you don’t have the shared experience. If someone sees that photos of you as a kid all show you as a boy, it’s only natural to say, hey, we have some experiences that you just don’t. And sometimes people want to talk in a space where they know that everyone else has those experiences, were raised with certain types of baggage they need to discuss, where certain weakness that might come with that baggage will not be out of the ordinary, will not be taken advantage of.
Something else I find with certain people who seem to want to cross a boundary “downwards” is the idea that as a member of the “higher” ranked group, they’re just ordinary. But as a member of the “lower” group, all of a sudden (they think) their ordinariness becomes extraordinary. Look, I can live as a functional adult!!! Look at me not needing help! Etc. Sometimes it’s couched in some self-congratulatory language too, stuff about look at me, how my performance and speaking out is doing the “lower” ranked group a FAVOR, because see, I’m one of them now but look how strong I am! I’m tweaking people’s prejudices! Unlike all those OTHER members of the “higher” ranked group, I don’t look down on the “lower,” no, I admire them so much I’m taking up their fight! …and yet it’s based on that same ranking.
…or something. Could be my special Japanese undies are on too tight…
[1] I assume that growing up trans has its own full set of issues – they’re just different issues from growing up as a girl, treated like a girl. The resistance to the externally imposed gender roles, for starters, is different because it’s different messages being responded to.
@Miska – You write “It reminds me of the way they continually conflate sex and gender. Honestly, having a discussion with them is like having a discussion with a character out of alice in wonderland.”
Recently I lurked on a big “transwank” (their term!) thread elsewhere that included a lot of arguing over terminology, what is and isn’t offensive to trans people. Putting the validity of the whole gender identity thing aside for a moment, I’d learned that the official line was “sex is your genitals” (or you biological phenotype generally, whatever causes it to happen, yeah I know there’s all kinds of variation out there) and “gender is your brain, your identity.” So you could theoretically say, “X’s sex is male, but X’s gender is female, X is a she regardless of the status of bits between the legs.” Or to put it another way, you will know the SEX of the person you happen to be currently sleeping in the nude with just by looking (again, assuming things are sufficiently normative one direction or the other) even if you might not know the gender or what pronouns are appropriate to use.”
But apparently now the official “sensitive” line, at least among some[1], has changed – now you’re supposed to say that the SEX of the person is the identity, or rather, the identity determines what you say the person’s SEX is, also. Because apparently taking the time to refer to “gender” all the time in the case of trans is insulting or denying identity, it’s on the euphemistic treadmill already or something. Now it should just be one word, period, done, over. If I identify female, my SEX is female, regardless of the state of my physical body.
This was news to my admittedly less than up-to-date self, just saying I don’t think it’s necessarily a matter of accidental confusion (which you no doubt already realize).
[1] Surely that poster wasn’t speaking for entire swaths of people, etc.
Regardless how you view trans people / if you believe in our identities or not, people should not be discriminated against for their gender expression from services like housing, or from employment and the ability to sustain one self.
And I don’t disagree with any of that. But females should not be forced to accept males as females, otherwise we are talking trans exceptionalism. Not trans equality. Trans people are being treated BETTER than the majority, not the same.
@Miska .. Ok look, how many housing complex have you created? How many jobs for employing people have you created personally? How many rape centers have you personally made? You benefit from the work of others. Saying trans woman must personally create *all* the services they need access to is very absurd.. as is trans people tend to be economically on the lower lower end of the scale with high unemployment rates
actually, I do volunteer for a women’s service. And I donate to others. But thats not the point.
The point is that these services are created and sustained by women, for the benefit of women. Actual women, who have been slotted into the female box our whole lives and treated like shit for it. They are not for the benefit of males who think of themselves as women.
And it’s rubbish that transwomen are all dirt poor. What of the late transitioners who work for years in male prestige jobs only to come out as “Cindy” in their forties. Oh how my heart bleeds for them.
And have you ever heard of a little thing called the feminisation of poverty? Female people are the poorest people in the world. And one of the biggest factors behind female poverty is motherhood, something that transwomen do not experience. But if you go to the poorest countries with the most unequal distribution of wealth, you will still find women running shelters for other women and creating support networks. In fact it is only the reason why any women’s services exist at all, because women put a great deal of time and energy into making them exist.
Only a male would believe that they have a right to services, but not have to work at ensuring these services exist. Once again, what you transwomen think of as a right, is actually a privilege.
And what could be stopping transwomen from making their own essential services, aside from laziness and entitlement?
Well it’s obvious to me, even if it isnt to you – the other reason is because accessing women’s services is a matter of validation for you lot. You wouldnt want to use a service for transwomen only and be stuck with the other freaks! You want to hang with the norms because it shows that you’re a real woman too! And as another commenter pointed out, it means that transwomen are the most TRANSPHOBIC! people of all.
You might as well theorize that because I don’t want a breast enhancement I have a ‘breast identity’. Yanno my true self is a 38b. Otherwise, I’d be making with the silicon!
I have a height identity! Even though I am tall I have the brain of a short person, and I have deep, internal sense of being short! As part of my transition I have bought a whole new wardrobe of clothes that are a couple of sizes too small for me, and if my work complains that I am dressing inappropriately I will accuse them of being TRANSPHOBIC! I’m still deciding on whether to get height reassignment surgery.
@Miska Well I am in my 20s, and most of my friends are too. Most people I know avoid woman’s groups like the plague since they fear acceptance. My problem is I see a lot of generalizations against trans people as a whole especially basing a lot of complaints on older transitioners. The assertion that trans people are afraid of being around other trans people for services is quiet an assumption. The bigger issue with your suggestion is in many many areas the numbers are few and far between. 2-3 people can hardly run a services. The few lucky people to be in a city, like myself, have access to many groups & services that are trans oriented (youth social groups, well informed doctors, etcs).
“And what could be stopping transwomen from making their own essential services, aside from laziness and entitlement?” “You wouldnt want to use a service for transwomen only and be stuck with the other freaks! You want to hang with the norms because it shows that you’re a real woman too!”
Actually I view myself as a *human* above all, not a freak thanks. Trans people, or more specifically to your focus, trans woman, do not deserve to be relegated to a corner away from society. We are friendly, smart, productive people who have no ill will or evil agendas and are living our lives.
“And it’s rubbish that transwomen are all dirt poor. What of the late transitioners who work for years in male prestige jobs only to come out as “Cindy” in their forties. Oh how my heart bleeds for them.”
Well that’s great that you want to be mad at older transitioners and label the whole of the community by that. I’ll just be quiet over here as I and 3 of my good friends remain unemployed still, with my debt piling very high >.>
My problem is I see a lot of generalizations against trans people as a whole especially basing a lot of complaints on older transitioners.
There isnt “a lot of complaints” based on older transitioners. It was mentioned a grand total of ONCE. And sorry, but older transitioners make up a significant portion of transwomen.
The bigger issue with your suggestion is in many many areas the numbers are few and far between. 2-3 people can hardly run a services. The few lucky people to be in a city, like myself, have access to many groups & services that are trans oriented (youth social groups, well informed doctors, etcs).
Bwahahahahaha!
Ah dude, do you know what it’s like trying to access mental health services away from the big cities? Or disability services? Accessing any specialty service away from metropolitan areas is difficult. Even non-specialty services are inadequate – a woman I know had to travel two towns over from her small but not tiny town for pre-natal care (and this is not a specialty service, because half the population are women, and most of them will be pregnant at some point).
Again, only a male would expect to be able to go anywhere, and have services available for their special and uncommon needs.
Trans people, or more specifically to your focus, trans woman, do not deserve to be relegated to a corner away from society. We are friendly, smart, productive people who have no ill will or evil agendas and are living our lives.
Why do you think that transwomen creating and sustaining their own services to address their own specific needs would mean that they’d be relegated to a corner away from society?
It would actually be a matter of transwomen using their capabilities and taking the initiative to look after their own. Transwomen are the experts on transwomen’s needs, and they are the best people for the job.
The fact that you are opposed to this demonstrates that for you it’s not really about accessing essential services at all, it’s about acceptance primarily. And “acceptance” for transwomen comes down to the rest of society (women in particular) validating your identity.
I have a lot of experience the services you mentioned actually through friends with disabilities & the like. I know small places have limited services and have struggled to help friends find services like suitable housing and the like before. This doesn’t mean I feel we should encourage this as a problem in society. I suggested relegated to a corner since why should trans people be limited to only ‘trans created spaces’? It has never been good in society when a group is segregated and is insulting you view trans people as a whole as something to avoid and exclude so thoroughly without context. All pockets of society have bad apples but I find it unfairly unjust to make such generalizations. I *know* we are not the only group in society that is separated / viewed as an other. Tons experience it including woman of course, however: inequality should not be a de facto standard to strive for.
“Again, only a male would expect to be able to go anywhere, and have services available for their special and uncommon needs. “, I would note I have never stated my gender, but I guess it’s a catch 22 because you could apply that to trans men or trans woman based on how you choose your views. Anyways thanks for the discussion, I’ll leave you to your space.
Oh and a note @polly: going into a trans only space to copy & paste private writings to here in despite all the writings I always see against trans people going into woman’s spaces is not cool. At least live by the standards you write about and choose to not go onto that forum. I only posted my comments here since this is a public blog. Thanks and bye~
I suggested relegated to a corner since why should trans people be limited to only ‘trans created spaces’? It has never been good in society when a group is segregated and is insulting you view trans people as a whole as something to avoid and exclude so thoroughly without context.
Without context?
Are you for real?
Sorry, there is plenty of context actually. The context is thousands of years of oppression, brutality, rape, violence, abuse, aggression, hatred and colonization that we FEMALE people have experienced at the hands of MALES.
Given the above we reserve the right to have spaces free from MALES.
YOU are a male.
You want access to services? Then you lot better start providing them, you entitled, oblivious prick.
@polly: going into a trans only space to copy & paste private writings to here in despite all the writings I always see against trans people going into woman’s spaces is not cool. \
It was Dirt not Polly who posted the forum excerpt. And gee, it’s so funny seeing a transwoman all up in arms about trans space being invaded. Irony much?
I’ve got no interest in infiltrating trans forums actually, but if you and your ilk come here a-trolling then you can fucking deal with the consequences.
“I have a height identity!”
Oh man me too, even though I am short, I have the brain of a tall person and have always felt I was a tall person in short persons body. I think I will have height adjustment surgery so my outside can match my inside.
(warning, this comment may contain trace elements of i don’t give a fuckitis and sarcasm)
*sigh*.. last post since I seem to have angered you.
oops, I apologize to @polly for mixing that up
@miska – I never came here to troll sorry if I come across as one. Actually I have been quite calm and friendly and avoiding all and any personal attacks. I simply was trying to discuss some of what was written.
“Sorry, there is plenty of context actually. The context is thousands of years of oppression, brutality, rape, violence, abuse, aggression, hatred and colonization that we FEMALE people have experienced at the hands of MALES.”
I.. I really do not know how to discuss this topic with you I guess since this is a highly loaded statement. I have lived a open life trying to be socially conscious, politically conscious, socially active and involved, and so on. I personally wouldn’t even call someone a bad name let alone inflict any forms of violence.. of course if my mere existence means atonement for crimes of people in ages past then continue your shunning.
Hating people for the past of their culture (or cultures before them) is.. I don’t even know what to say. I couldn’t live a life with that much hate in me. If you truly want to shun someone’s past, you came from a bloodline with many many male ancestors too, food for thought.
I’ve never been to a trans forum in my life kyals – pay attention. I was posting what someone else had said.
But here’s a top tip from me! There ARE no private spaces on public internet forums. If you want something to be private on the internetz you should password protect it.
And that is also not the fucking point: Nobody has gone to a trans forum, and endlessly trolled them like trans activists do to feminist blogs. Nobody has gone to a trans blog and sent a piece of rogue code like happened to my last blog. Nobody has gone to a trans blog and issued racist rape/death threats like trans activists do to feminist blogs.
The women’s spaces we are talking about IN ANY CASE are actual physical spaces! Real spaces with real people in. As in a women’s DV shelter with a communal bathroom. Or a survivor’s group where people meet in real life, face to face. Or yanno, women’s toilets!
I note you’ve failed to address the issue of trans exceptionalism completely kyals and tried a crap diversionary tactic instead. Big fucking surprise there then.
You’ll be saying you don’t like my ‘tone’ next of course.
Actually I view myself as a *human* above all, not a freak thanks. Trans people, or more specifically to your focus, trans woman, do not deserve to be relegated to a corner away from society. We are friendly, smart, productive people who have no ill will or evil agendas and are living our lives.
Spaces are female only for a reason Kyals. And it is NOT because females want to be ‘relegated to a corner away from society’. It is because they wish to be in a place without males.
Which bit of ‘trans inclusion makes that impossible’ do you not understand?
Nobody is suggesting trans women be ‘relegated to a corner away from society’. They are saying they don’t belong in female only spaces. Because they’re not female.
@ kyals
I’m not talking about the past or history. Female oppression isnt something relegated to the past. I’m talking about the present.
Every single male alive today – right now! – benefits from male privilege and entitlement at the expense of women.
“I have a height identity!”
Oh man me too, even though I am short, I have the brain of a tall person and have always felt I was a tall person in short persons body. I think I will have height adjustment surgery so my outside can match my inside.
You do realise, berryblade, that you being short means you have height privilege?
Because I want to be short*. And you have something I want — that means you’re privileged!
Stop oppressing me!
* for the purpose of this thread. In reality being tall is really pretty nice.
Kyals, the feeling of entitlement is itself a valuable thing; if you treat people as if they owe you something, a significant number of them will just give in and give you what you want (it works especially well if you are higher status than them, of course, but the research suggests it works more than you might think even without that). That is no doubt one of the reasons it is so hard for privileged people to give up that feeling. Of course, a transwoman grows up with the male sense of entitlement, and that feeling doesn’t go away, so that’s a way in which transwomen have an unfair advantage over those who are born women, contrary to the claim of the transwomen to be an especially disadvantaged class. Further, since this sense of entitlement is one of the things which makes men dangerous (since they can justify to themselves engaging in violence in the cause of getting what they deserve), women would appear to have legitimate reasons to feel that having transwomen around is as potentially unsafe as having men around.
For those who havent seen it yet, this post at the f word is a pretty good example of what I’ve been talking about
http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2010/07/on_being_a_gend
It’s written by a female person who doesn’t identify as woman, and considers herself to have no gender. She says this at the end:
But I know that how I identify has no bearing upon the prejudices of others. No person may choose how they are discriminated against. I am gender free. But this, my breasts do not recognise. Nor my hips, or my hands, or the rounded curve of my face. I have been insulted, patronized, harassed, and assaulted as a woman, because this is what I will always be to the eyes of others.
Which has really been my whole point. How one identifies is ultimately pretty meaningless. At the end of the day how society identifies you is what counts.
Feministing… I can’t even get through their articles anymore. It’s just too much self involved drivel.
@Polly
I only avoided commenting on some topics, such as ‘trans exceptionalism’, since I didn’t wish I start a large argument.
If you want my 2 cents, here it is: You posted about a trans woman being allowed to be married to another woman. The problem being, if it was 2 woman where neither are trans they could not do that. You labeled it by calling it trans exceptionalism. You *however* also constantly state trans woman are men. Example: “They don’t belong in female only spaces. Because they’re not female.”
If you feel they are men this should not bother you.
I personally do not agree with people getting benefits as male in areas where legally they are not considered female. I however do feel everyone should be allowed to marry including same sex couples so I fully support people being married however possible. You would like them to always be considered male however so I don’t understand your anger over that news article. That’s my 2 cents.
“If you truly want to shun someone’s past, you came from a bloodline with many many male ancestors too, food for thought.”
Way to totally, completely, 100% miss the point. This doesn’t even make logical sense.
I must say, there’s something I never expected to see on my blog – a male explaining to another male the significance of male entitlement.
Aaron, I declare you to be a unicorn!
I.. I really do not know how to discuss this topic with you I guess since this is a highly loaded statement.
in response to this, from a FAAB:
“Sorry, there is plenty of context actually. The context is thousands of years of oppression, brutality, rape, violence, abuse, aggression, hatred and colonization that we FEMALE people have experienced at the hands of MALES.”
trans-lation (also useful to men, not coincidentally): “this clearly makes you upset; therefore, its not important enough to talk about. oh, and you are wrong.”
I have lived a open life trying to be socially conscious, politically conscious, socially active and involved, and so on. I personally wouldn’t even call someone a bad name let alone inflict any forms of violence..
trans-lation (also used by men): “rape culture does not exist. TRUST ME!”
of course if my mere existence means atonement for crimes of people in ages past then continue your shunning.
trans-lation (also used by men, and white supremecists): “unless you let me into your space and onto center stage, YOU ARE AS BAD AS MY SLAVE-OWNING ANCESTORS, and what you are doing is as bad as rape. neither of which is really that bad, but YOU seem to think they are, and you are upset and vulnerable (see #1) so i am trying to confuse you with a disingenuous parallel, and throwing a massive temper tantrum to elicit a caretaking response!”
go fuck yourselves, teh menz.
only avoided commenting on some topics, such as ‘trans exceptionalism’, since I didn’t wish I start a large argument.
If you want my 2 cents, here it is: You posted about a trans woman being allowed to be married to another woman. The problem being, if it was 2 woman where neither are trans they could not do that. You labeled it by calling it trans exceptionalism. You *however* also constantly state trans woman are men. Example: “They don’t belong in female only spaces. Because they’re not female.”
If you feel they are men this should not bother you.
I personally do not agree with people getting benefits as male in areas where legally they are not considered female. I however do feel everyone should be allowed to marry including same sex couples so I fully support people being married however possible. You would like them to always be considered male however so I don’t understand your anger over that news article. That’s my 2 cents.
Well the issue is kyals that Ms Timbrell is able (becuase of her gender reassigment) to get a state pension at the age of 60 whereas other men have to wait until 65. But she is not prepared to also accept the DISADVANTAGES of being a woman. IE she cannot be married to a woman and if she were to re enter a civil partnership with her wife, her WIFE (now her civil partner) would lose accrued rights to Ms Timbrell’s pension.
In other words she wants to have her cake AND eat it. And the courts have allowed her to do this, because she is trans.
And the reason I’m angry about that is that she thus has considerably better rights than boring ol FAB lesbian like moi!
Aaron, I may have been a bit rude to you on M Andrea’s, I apologise wholeheartedly. I also declare you to be a unicorn.
@ FCM
Thanks for breaking down the stupidity of kyals’ comment. Honestly, it’s almost like all males have a special book they refer to when responding to women. Because straight, gay, trans, supposedly pro-feminist, unapologetic misogynist – their responses are always so predictable and samey. Yaaaawn.
@factcheckme
I never denied rape culture as existing. Please don’t add words to my mouth I just had a large lunch. *It is real*, and a problem. My arguments have been focused on generalization that ignore that there are people who are exceptions. People can try to be better people and not part of the problem. If you think that’s impossible then things can *never* change by that logic.
I would note I have also not been demanding access to your spaces in my writings so please do not insist that I have been. I have only been questioning assertions that act to generalize trans people as a whole and to dehumanize us. I have no desire to enter your spaces.
Also, “this clearly makes you upset; therefore, its not important enough to talk about. oh, and you are wrong.”, actually I’ve just been avoiding starting a flame war since I don’t particularly wish to be banned and was trying to discuss the topics.
The men have the same arguments because they are not original thinkers. They haven’t really done the hard feminist analysis. Kind of like 6th graders who haven’t read Dworkin.
Men like shoot off their mouths without doing the homework on feminism. They certainly have no chance of understanding 40 year radical feminist developments, nor would they be able to. They have no incentive to do the work in male supremacy. They are unicorns
That’s being pretty nice to men, calling them such a wonderful name
@ kyals
My arguments have been focused on generalization that ignore that there are people who are exceptions.
There arent any exceptions under the patriarchy. All males benefit from male privilege, all males benefit from the rape culture.
Your bullshit exceptionalism is actually very solid evidence that you don’t know what rape culture *is*. Obviously not every man rapes, as men traditionally define rape (explicitly to keep rapists out of jail for rape…unless and until they violate another man’s property interest in a particular woman). But rape culture is the fabric of society, in which as miska says, all born-men benefit. Transwomen benefit from rape culture very specifically: vaginas are nothing more than fuckholes in a rape culture, and fuckholes can be surgically constructed. Viola! Goody for you. In the meantime, this mentality persists, and born-women suffer greatly from the assumption, while it actually *cures* you of your anxiety, and feelings of dysphoria. Well fuck you, you cocksucking pieces of shit. Just fuck. You.
UGH! Exceptionalism arguments are soooo boring! Not to mention that they’re inherently self-defeating. Exceptionalism implicitly acknowledges the larger point: whatever “exception” is being pointed to wouldn’t be an “exception” if the Rule/Generalization didn’t exist in the first place! Rarely, if ever, does the larger Rule depend on black & white absolutism. The fact that a few outliers exists does not substantially mitigate the aggregate damage caused by the dominant paradigm. Please stay focused on the Real Problem: the Rule.
And it’s being written into laws. That’s a real threat to women and feminism.”
: I question what is lost in society protecting gender diversity, gender identity, gender expression. The lawful protections that trans people seek are not trans specific but protect the right of all people to be outside the norms of gender expression from wrongful treatments for going against the social grain. Regardless how you view trans people / if you believe in our identities or not, people should not be discriminated against for their gender expression from services like housing, or from employment and the ability to sustain one self.
Kyals. When it is WRITTEN INTO LAW – which it is in the UK certainly- that a male with ‘gender dysphoria’ is legally a woman and can enter a woman’s changing room in a swimming pool or gym or dress shop, or work in a woman only rape crisis centre, or be transferred to a woman’s prison, EVEN IF THEY ARE STILL COMPLETELY PHYSICALLY MALE AND HAVE A PENIS – oh and they’re a rapist/murder by the way – we have a problem.
ALL these things and more can/have happened in the UK Kyals. And a female is not allowed to protest against these things because it’s discrimination.
How exactly is this equality. It’s not. It’s TRANS PRIVILEGE. The ‘gender identities’ of the male born are considered more important than the safety and comfort of females.
Anyone is free to consider souls, spirit animals, star signs and gender identities as being an intrinsic part of themselves. But no-one can expect the world to bend around these perceptions of self, validate them or pander to them.
In fact, if one’s identity is so fragile as to be contingent on other people validating it, then there is obviously something problematic about the identity.
Those of you who are gender-identified might want to work on that.
Presactly
Oh and take a look at this!
A transsexual who downloaded sickening child porn has been spared jail after a judge said she would not be safe in prison.
Laura Voyce, 20, who used to be called Luke, could have been locked up for nine months after being convicted of 14 counts of downloading indecent images of children.
But Judge Lesley Newton handed Voyce a suspended sentence after saying prison would be an ‘appalling experience’ for the sex offender. Voyce, who is in the process of having a sex change, is biologically a man but legally a woman.
Judge Newton said: “Frankly, you deserve to go to prison, but I can’t bring myself to send you to prison, entirely because I think prison would be an appalling experience for you. I do not see how you could be kept safe in a prison environment with the best will in the world on the part of those who run such establishments.”
She added: “I’m satisfied that you downloaded those images with a view to perverted sexual gratification. I take these offences very seriously; these are real children who are being abused so that people like you can look at them.”
Manchester Crown Court had heard how a stash of child porn was found on Voyce’s computer by police investigating another allegation. Four of the 14 images uncovered were at level 4, the second worst category of child pornography, and depicted youngsters being abused.
The images were discovered when Voyce was living in Withington, Manchester in 2008.
Voyce claimed she looked at pictures of partly-naked youngsters in a bid to come to terms with her troubled childhood.
Kay Driver, defending, told the court that if she were jailed Voyce faced being sent to a male prison. She said: “She’s clearly going to be extremely vulnerable in a male prison environment.”
She said Voyce, who now lives in Kirkby, Merseyside, still maintains her innocence,but has ‘an appreciation of the harm these offences cause’.
She added that her client had suffered ‘gender insecurities’ throughout her youth which had led to ‘substantial bullying’, ‘isolation’, and ‘disrespect for her own body which led her to be used by others’.
She said that Voyce, who is legally certified as female, was engaged to be married.
Handing Voyce a nine-month sentence suspended for a year and 100 hours unpaid work, Judge Newton ordered her to sign the Sex Offenders’ Register for five years and told her she would be jailed if she fell foul of the law again.
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/crime/s/1301598_sexswap_lets_porn_pervert_dodge_prison?rss=yes&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+menews%2Fnews+%28News+-+Manchester+Evening+News+-+RSS+Feed%29
This is an awesome thread.
I guess I feminist fail because I go have a felt sense of being a woman, and it makes me feel superior and pissed off at men usurping my right to enjoy life on earth as a female ape and instead live in this ridiculous set of fabricated boxes. I agree with most everything said here, however I think that to some degree not having a wonderful sense of felt womanhood is actually a RESULT of patriarchy, not a triumph over it. I think what most non-feminist women would describe is a felt sense of femaleness is actually self-identification as an object however I believe there is a positive, female sense of self in nature i.e. absent patriarchy, we’d all be feeling it and probably have complete ownage over dudes.
additionally, @kyals-
“Hating people for the past of their culture (or cultures before them) is.. I don’t even know what to say.”
I think if men stood up and did something saying that they were against patriarchy they might receive a better response re: trying to enter women’s space. As it is, all trans women are doing is modding their male bodies and then claiming the oppression that cis women have no control over having, which is going to piss us right off to begin with, because our whole point is that it’s NOT fun, and then claiming the rights that even we haven’t been able to get and in most cases being more successful on the same topics. And THEN coming into women’s space to “chat” about it?
You need to examine your own actions more closely before you go baiting others while claiming to avoid “attacks.” No one is attacking you.
I don’t think women who object to transwomen assumptions of access is about hating. I think women often feel that transwomen just barge in and do inappropriate things– the things men are rarely if ever held accountable for.
I have had many conversations with transwomen in different places, but the most interesting contrasts occur in lesbian bars. The transwoman will say something completely obnoxious and jarring, something I would never hear a bio-woman say to me in similar circumstances ever. It is stunning and insulting. For once, I’d like the transwoman movement to really own up to what bio-women may in fact be objecting to in this “gender house of mirrors game” out there. I for one am tired of it.
I’ll start by saying that I don’t have one of those – a deep internal sense of being a woman. I dont have a sense of being a man either. I have a deep internal sense of being a human being. And that’s it.
Now, there are times when I do have a sense of being a woman. And that is when I am made to feel like a woman.
THIS TIMES A MILLION. If I morphed into a man right now, I’d have some logistical issues getting used to acting differently in ways I wasn’t socialized to do–e.g., don’t make eye contact with strangers by accident because it’s more likely to be seen as threatening or creepy. But after I got used to those things, I really wouldn’t care that I was a man. I DO NOT HAVE A GENDER IDENTITY. It is a simplistic construction some children latch onto when performing gender feels off. Some children have to come to some sort of conclusion explaining why this is, and that’s the simplest way for them to understand it. Most women I know, especially feminist women, have felt this same way as kids. They just didn’t try to explain it using that child-like explanation.
If I didn’t like wearing, say, colorful and striped hipster gear and instead wanted to wear, say, death-metal black jeans and a black Metallica shirt, and then I explained that preference in expression as part of my INNATE identity, like, “In my brain, I feel like the child of a family from a rural trailer park instead of the entitled, trust-fund offspring of some upper-middle class suburbanites, but through an accident of the universe, my brain was switched to the wrong body” you’d bet that ridiculous and offensive shit wouldn’t fly. But because the class at hand is women…well, you know the rest.